Author Topic: Line knots  (Read 1079 times)

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Flue

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Line knots
« on: November 08, 2009, 09:03:06 PM »
I've done quite a bit of know research lately (mostly strength) and maybe I'm tying it wrong, but that knot is not even close to 100% line strength.   The knot I use at the fly is only rated at 80% or so and it seldom breaks.  So, what would you fellers say would be a good knot for loop to loop??

onemorecast

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 09:37:44 PM »


    Consider this for any knot that you use: If it doesn't come apart on you....don't change. 

A well-tied 80% or 65% knot (one you have confidence in, one that you can tie quickly and easily) is far more effective than is a poorly tied 90% knot.

Loop-to-Loop knot?  What are you using now?  What are your issues with it?

Joseph
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Flue

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 06:58:10 AM »
When I'm tossing heaver shtuff (big long cone heads and such) I find that I do a much better job when I use a furled leader.  It's also nice that it allows the bait to get down.  I use the perfection loop on the furled leader and was using the same know on the tippet.  But every time the tippet has broken, it broke at the perfection loop knot.  I don't remember the name of the knot I use at the fly (loop on top, 3 wraps below the loop, tag through the loop, pull till the knot clicks) but it's very frustrating for the tippet to break right at the perfection loop knot every single time.  Don't ask me why I still use it if it keeps breaking on me.  Just dumb I guess.  :3

Shawn

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 08:37:10 PM »
The good old cinch or clinch knot is still my top terminal knot.  Have you ever used those tiny loops from Feather Craft?  A friend of mine that chucks some large flies swears by them...  I used loops for a while and went back to blood knots in large diameter and surgeon in smaller.

Shawn

Big_Al_K

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 02:02:35 AM »
I've been using perfection loops for my leader/tippet connections for the past 7 or 8 years and I have not really had a problem with them.  Are they supposed to be a 100% knot?  I just started using them 'cuz they seemed easy for me to tie.  (I suck at blood knots)  On my trout set up I start with a tapered mono leader cut back to where it starts to thicken up, then step down starting with 3x, then 4x, and 5x.  Needless to say I go through more 5x than anything else, but even if it breaks off at the perfection loop knot, I apply way more pressure than the tippet is rated for in order to break it off.

On my bass set up I start with a furled leader, and just use a length of 12# mono for tippet and I've pulled Lily Pads out of the bottom of lakes with that set up.  I do recall seeing somewhere that if the tag end doesn't stick out at a 90 deg. angle when you're done, it results in a weaker knot.  I don't remember where I read that, but I know I saw it somewhere.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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john

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 07:00:43 AM »
You might want to switch from a perfection to a double surgeons. Perfections, particularly with a stiffer mono have a tendency to open up. That slack contributes to friction on the cast at the junction and  a "snap" on a strike, decreasing the effective knot strength. You can tie a double sugeons knot longer, creating a more narrow loop, and for me at least, it takes a "set" better that holds the loops together.

flyfish1

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 09:03:25 AM »
For me, the Perfection loop works great.  I have never had one break or loosen and use them up to 12 or 15# for the extender with my furled leaders.  Generally, the extender is 6-8#, especially for trout fishing where I use 5X or 6X tippets.  I also put a Perfection loop on the tippet and carry several pre-tied tippets so changing tippets is quick and easy (loop to loop).  That is not to say I haven't tied lots of Perfection loops on tippet material on the stream.

My guess would be using anything heavier than 15# might be tempting a loosening of the Perfection knot, but never have had to use anything that heavy, even in saltwater so have no first hand knowledge .  Remember, a fly line is roughly 25# test, so you want the tippet to break if something is going to "pop" -- really wouldn't want to lose a fly line or an expensive furled leader.

Steve O.
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Mull_Dover

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:04 PM »
You might want to switch from a perfection to a double surgeons. Perfections, particularly with a stiffer mono have a tendency to open up. That slack contributes to friction on the cast at the junction and  a "snap" on a strike, decreasing the effective knot strength. You can tie a double sugeons knot longer, creating a more narrow loop, and for me at least, it takes a "set" better that holds the loops together.

Agreed, The double surgeons is my choice as well. It has the added benefit of being a very easy tie and quite manageable in the dark.
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Gnatsobad

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 10:27:37 AM »
Ditto, double surgeons knot.  I work a lot with knots from my free time to work and any knot that is tied well and easy to do is the knot for you.  Sure there are stronger more complicated knots but sitting and tying a George Harvey Dry Fly knot at home with a detailed picture  is one thing while tying an improved clinch on the stream with frozen wet fingers is another.  Find a knot you can practically tie with your eyes closed and that is the one for you.  As a side note, my grandfather sent me a book last year from a rummage sale called, "Practical Fishing Knots" by Mark Sosin and Lefty Kreh by Lyons Press.  A great small book that can be carried anywhere with a vast wealth of information.  Look it up, I know there is a copy in some libraries in the area Neenah for sure. 
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flyfish1

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 11:17:18 AM »
Ditto, double surgeons knot.  I work a lot with knots from my free time to work and any knot that is tied well and easy to do is the knot for you.  Sure there are stronger more complicated knots but sitting and tying a George Harvey Dry Fly knot at home with a detailed picture  is one thing while tying an improved clinch on the stream with frozen wet fingers is another.  Find a knot you can practically tie with your eyes closed and that is the one for you.  As a side note, my grandfather sent me a book last year from a rummage sale called, "Practical Fishing Knots" by Mark Sosin and Lefty Kreh by Lyons Press.  A great small book that can be carried anywhere with a vast wealth of information.  Look it up, I know there is a copy in some libraries in the area Neenah for sure. 

There is no question that the double surgeon's knot is probably the easiest knot to tie and is extremely strong.  I use it whenever adding tippet to a non-furled leader or just adding new tippet to a short tippet when it is dark and or cold.  For loop to loop connections I stick to the perfection loop -- not difficult to tie, holds well and makes tippet changing a snap.

"Practical Fishing Knots" is excellent.  There are a couple of websites that show knot tying (i.e. www.netknots.com/html/fishing_knots.html) which many of my friends have found very helpful.  I bought a knot tying kit, which basically is 2 pieces of rope and a oversized, giant hook with detailed instructions that give you a chance to learn the knots while watching television or whatever.  Good luck.

Steve O.
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john

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2009, 04:00:31 PM »
In the FWIW category, there was a highly respected "knot guru" in Ca. named Bill Nash. He posted into Dan Blanton's board frequently answering all manner of knot questions. He'd taken knot tying, and strength measuring to a plane higher than any of us could stomach. Bill died earlier this year but his book is still available.  I think the Book Mailer has it. If not, his daughter is selling them personally. Bill took most known(and unknown) knots, tied each them with mono, flouro, different brands of tippet, and different #tests of tippet. Lots of great knots with mono fared poorly with flouro and the other way around. A lot of knots did poorly when you tried to marry mono to flouro, while others shined. You can search Blanton's archives and get some great(and humbling) info.

SirTrout

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 06:52:41 PM »
I'm with John on this one, when I used perfection loops to connect my tippet to my leader and then a duckan loop to attach the fly to the tippet.  If I would hang the fly on a tree (easy to in Central Wis) it would break off at the Perfection loops, thus having to not only tie on a new fly but also more tippet.  I have sense switch to double surgeon's loops for my leader and tippet loops and now I'll lose fewer tippets.

In the end people should use knot they are comfortable with and have confidence in.  And keep an open mind to trying new knots.
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257ROBT

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2009, 09:22:06 PM »
I have had loop knots break. I used a surgeon's loop which has worked well for ice fishing, but "knot" so much for fly fishing I have found out. This thread got me thinking; how would a Rapala knot work? I've tied it when spin fishing Raps and have yet to break one with 4lb mono.

   Dale
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Gnatsobad

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 02:38:28 PM »
  Does anyone have any suggestions for loop knots which attach to the fly or streamer.  I tend to nod in a agreement when I hear it gives better action on some streamers.  Never really tried them though.
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BoB_K

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Re: Line knots
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 08:12:27 PM »
As Steve mentioned, the Duncan Loop works well with streamers to add more action.

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